Oct 07 2007

I Have a Dream, Too

Posted by Jane Devin

at 2:01 pm under Other Writings, Politics/War

Dear Next-President Clinton & Other Democratic Nominees: 

I have a dream.  It’s not an eloquent dream that will rock the nation’s collective conscience.  It’s just a simple dream being written from a small apartment in the Midwest, by an average working woman who has carried a promise in her heart for over four decades.

The promise of the American Dream.  Where we live in a land of boundless opportunity, and where anyone from any background can succeed with effort and ingenuity.  Where it really is about the content of one’s character — their intelligence, talent and drive — and not about color, class, creed, religion, sex, or other push button elements of discrimination.

It didn’t always quite work out that way for me, or countless thousands of others, but I never subscribed to the “life isn’t fair” philosophy as a blanket excuse.  As a fact, life isn’t fair.  As a goal, as a hope for future generations, we shouldn’t quit trying to make it as fair as possible.

In my dream, the Democratic party will win a resounding victory in the next election.  They will refuse to be sidetracked or taken off course by Rove-style created scandals, or the right’s smash-and-dent tactics of character assassination, which are meant only to delude the American public and throw the Democratic party off-message and off-balance.

I have a dream that Democrats will stay focused.  Not just eye-on-the-prize focused, but focused as if there are millions of lives depending on the outcome of this election – because there are.  The American death toll in Iraq is over 3800. The lowest estimate of Iraqi deaths is over 70,000.  Over 46.6 million Americans are without health insurance, and 8.3 million of them are children. (Incidentally, I am one of the uninsured, and my day job is with the U.S. government).

36.5 million Americans are living in poverty, and almost 9.4 million of those are senior citizens. The median price of owning a home in the U.S. rose over 38% from January 2000 to August 2007, when the average reported home price was $225,700. In larger cities, the picture is even bleaker. In Northern Monterey California, the average home in 2005 cost $712,000 while the average income was $48,000. The middle and lower classes are effectively being priced out of the housing market in major cities across America.

I have a dream that Democrats will be the architects of a new, brighter, and wiser America, reigniting the hopes and optimism of its citizens, young and old.  An America that does not create wars, but promotes peace. A country that serves as global leader not because it has the most weapons but because it will be, as it once was, a role model for dignity, freedom and democracy.

I have a dream that the average American citizen will not be thrown into poverty or financial crisis by a health issue.  No one in America should have to choose between necessary medical care and bread.  I don’t know if universal health care is the answer, but we need to discuss it and we need to find some answers.  It’s ironic that when I entered the full-time job market in 1978, at sixteen years old, there were more benefits available to workers, at more affordable rates, than there are now, almost 30 years later.  That is not progress, but regression.  How Republicans can shell out $600B on an offensive war while saying health coverage for all Americans is cost-prohibitive is beyond me, and I don’t stand alone.  Beside me stand not only the 46.6 million uninsured, but the countless under-insured, and all those who believe that America has a stake in keeping its citizens healthy.

I have a dream that we can regain our stature in the world and repair our reputation abroad.

We cannot erase the picture of naked men being humiliated and beaten at Abu Ghraib. We cannot undo our breaking of Geneva Convention promises.  We cannot turn an unjust war into positive propaganda.  No country, but especially one in the leadership role of the U.S., should resort to the humiliation and torture of others, even in times of war.  Abu Ghraib was a disgrace to America, a hypocritical slap in the face to the rights and dignity of humanity we promote around the globe.

We can, and must, stand up and take responsibility.  For the sake of future generations, we should say never again, and mean it, and we should do whatever needs to be done to ensure that future administrations are not able to abuse the power and authority given to them by the office of President.

I have a dream that the focus of this election will not wander into the appeasement of the various and far-apart agendas of special interests.  That, instead, our party will stay on point, stay on message, and trust that the centrist backing necessary to win this election will follow.

I have a dream that the Fairness Doctrine will be reinstated.  We have now seen what conglomerate corporate media interests will promote when they are allowed to rule the airwaves.  It is disingenuous to say, as opponents of the Doctrine have, that programming is based solely on market demand.  Market demand does not stem from any inherent desire in human nature to be sold on this or that product, person, or philosophy.  Market demand is, instead, a creation of the media. One bar of soap sells more not because it’s superior, but because it’s promoted.  A celebrity is created not only on the basis of talent, but by repeated exposure.  Political and social philosophies – the awareness, information, and opinions Americans receive from news sources – should be balanced.  Our understanding of relevant issues should not be tainted or swayed by corporate agendas, and should be watched over and considered more important than a bar of soap.

I have a dream that the Patriot Act will be repealed or revised so that it does not attack the civil liberties guaranteed to American citizens.  War should not be an excuse to trample over the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I have a dream that on November 4, 2008 America will vote for its first female President, Hillary Rodham Clinton, and that Democrats will make up a majority of the House and Senate.  In this dream, we do not backpedal and we do not compromise our vision of America as a leader in peace, opportunity, production, and the betterment of humanity.  We roll up our sleeves, clean up the mess, and move forward with strength, dignity, and a revitalized sense of commitment.

We become contributors to and beneficiaries of an inclusive, encompassing, compassionate, and once-again believable American Dream. 

53 responses so far

53 Responses to “I Have a Dream, Too”

  1. Francieon 07 Oct 2007 at 3:13 pm 1

    Great article.

  2. Saraon 07 Oct 2007 at 3:22 pm 2

    It is a lovely dream.

    You know, after the Gore/Bush election chad fiasco, I was CONVINCED that in the next election we would see droves of people turning out to vote. I was SURE that American was as glued to the TV night after night, as I was, waiting for the outcome, and convinced that American would see that EVERY vote DOES count.

    I was so wrong.

    When Bush defeated Kerry, with barely 2M more at the poles (and most of those were the youth vote) then the prior election, I was bewildered. What happened? Why didn’t the Dems turn out in droves to remove Bush from office. How could they have re-elected him again!

    Sometimes, when I am so frustrated, and sickened by all this Bush mess, I feel so defeated, and I just feel like yelling, “THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT” to all those who voted for Bush, or chose not to vote at all. Because, well, I feel like Americans are partly to blame. I feel like we had a chance to get rid of him in 2004, and most people just didn’t care enough to vote. Those who did, well some felt it was better to let Bush clean up his own mess. Others…I just don’t know. Are they the ones who still deny global warming?? (ok, off topic) However, I don’t really feel we are to blame. I watched from Italy, as Bush manipulated Americans post 9/11 and quite frankly, he scared the crap out of everyone. I think as a country, we were suffering PTSD, and Bush and his war mongering goonies took advantage. So, I am not really blaming the people, but I do get angry and feel like blaming them sometimes.

    Jane, I do believe we have the power to make your dream come true. We have the power to set education on the path to repair, we have the power to correct the health care problem, we have the power to set in motion an end to this war, we have the power to reverse the patriot act. WE HAVE THE POWER! We just have to USE IT! We have to VOTE! We have to take action. If we sit by, and leave the choices to someone else, we lose.

    Some people choose to sit and complain, and say/feel that nothing can be done. But change can happen! We have to MAKE IT HAPPEN. One voice is lost in a crowd, but collectively, we can be heard. We just have to band together, and we have to make ourselves heard!

    And we CAN elect a woman for President. We have to VOTE. We have to CARE. We have to TAKE ACTION!

    The millions of people in America who are fed up with Bush and the Republicans, and there ARE millions, need to VOTE. And then, we can begin to make your dream come true.

    I had a similar post the other day, on my blog, at the end of the long post, if you care to read it.

    Let’s take back the America that we know and love. Let’s be home of the brave, home of the free and home of the PROUD again.

  3. Jane Devinon 07 Oct 2007 at 4:44 pm 3

    Thank you, Francie.

    Sara, I agree. The apathy of such a large part of the American public is absolutely astonishing. The 2004 election had the highest percentage of voters since 1968, and even then it was less than 60% of the eligible voting public.

    Some would argue that this means 40+% of the population is so happy with the way things are they don’t feel the need to vote. Malarkey. It just means they’re apathetic. They don’t believe their vote will make a difference — they don’t understand or want to understand the political system — or they flat-out just don’t care.

    I’m less concerned about that 40% than I am about the people that actually do show up at the polls. Our news media, the major source of information on the issues and the candidates, has grown so unbalanced. It’s frightening to consider the effect they have had in the last decade, and I am worried that a significant percentage of Americans are not understanding where they’re actually getting their news from — which is the conservative idealogues that presently own or control many media sources.

    We need to bring back the Fairness Doctrine so that the information Americans receive is not as tainted.

  4. Saraon 07 Oct 2007 at 5:59 pm 4

    You know what is also really bugging me? Republicans keep spouting that if you speak against the war, you are against the soldiers. I was reading Rush’s site, and he wrote that Dems are against soldiers because we want to end the war, we want to bring the soldiers home WHAT??

    Republicans try to (have) convince(d) many that we are fighting a war to save America. That by wanting the soldiers home, we want to lose, that we favor the terrorists.

    It is a false war! It isn’t a war, it is an invasion, if anything. The American public was lied to, american soldiers were lied to. They aren’t defending America, they are invading a country, under a commander in chief who lied to them, and falsified documents in order to invade a country, for oil. But that is in NO WAY speaking out against the soldiers. Soldiers have to do what they are told. They started out doing what they believed was defending America, like so many Americans did. But most americans know better, now. Now, the soldiers are trying to do the best they can to restore order to a country ripped apart by a civil war.

    He thinks saying, “We can’t win. We’re losing, too many deaths,” is speaking out against the troops. Too me, it is a terrible situation, one that we were destined to fail, under its false pretenses, and mismanagement. If we do lose the war, it isn’t the soldiers who lost the war, it is Bush and his monkeys. But it is all those who lost their lives of family members that really lose.

    The soldiers are the only ones doing anything right. They are doing what they were told to do. It is unfortunate that they were lied to, and are dying, serving under a commander who doesn’t seem to give a rats ass about them. But all of us, who are worried about the increasing number of deaths, the shoddy healthcare they get, lack of proper equipment, the low pay, the repeated tours, and the strains this is causing on their families, WE are the ones who they call unpatriotic!

    How can we, as Americans, be anti-troops??? These troops are our daughters, our sons, our fathers, mothers, grandmothers, cousins, uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives.

    Sorry, I am just all riled up! It makes me SO angry! I think I need to watch Ellen again. I know when I get too ticked off, I need to avoid the news for a while and watch ellen. Her show is always happy. haha

    Sorry to unload on you! I am not even sure if it makes sense. haha

  5. Lonnieon 07 Oct 2007 at 7:24 pm 5

    I have the same dream. I’ve had it since Bush and his team of thugs stole the election from Gore.

    I still remember those news clips from the election rooms in FLA. The pettiness, shouting, and mob behavior of the Republicans. Later, the abuse of the court system. A man who shouldn’t have been President taking over the presidency without an ounce of recognition for the fact that the MAJORITY of Americans did not want him.

    It is so sad, Jane, what has become of this country. I so agree with you that we, as a country, need to be revitalized, reenergized (sp?), and set on a new course. I don’t know enough about the candidates yet to choose, I know Obama is becoming more popular, but I also think Hillary would do a good job.

  6. Alisonon 07 Oct 2007 at 8:25 pm 6

    At the risk of sounding like a crackpot, I don’t think it was voter apathy that put Bush in for a second term any more than I thought the Supreme Court agonized over how to fairly determine the winner of the 2000 election. There is also ample physical and anecdotal evidence to indicate fraud in both the 2000 Florida vote and the 2004 Ohio vote. Funny how in both instances the FL and OH Secretary of States had election oversight and happened to be Republican campaign co-chairs. Of course the news media all but swept the mind-blowing Conyers findings under the rug, or at best matter of factly mentioned it and moved the hell on. By 2004 Bush was widely regarded as a buffoon and the consensus after his 3 debates with Kerry was that Bush lost all 3 of them. I will never believe that most voting Americans went out and re-voted for the dolt.

    I also am convinced by the available evidence, and the also very telling unavailable evidence, that 9/11 was at the very least allowed to occur. There are mountains of facts that don’t add up and the supposed official “debunking” was done oddly in the very pedestrian magazine Popular Mechanics. Funny how Benjamin Chertoff, cousin of Michael Chertoff, was the one who wrote the PM article. I am convinced that one day the whole truth will come out and that this whole war on terror was a contrivance to establish a stronghold in the Middle East, lay and oversee strategic oil pipelines, and enjoy a corporate war profit bonanza in the process.

    The sad part is that stealing elections, creating a war with a false pretense (also now generally accepted), massive cronyism and corruption, bankrupting our country, incompetence at home and abroad, neglecting the needs of the citizens, and tons of examples of bungling and scandals that you can’t even begin to enumerate… all that isn’t enough to have our elected representatives move to impeach these guys? By not moving to toss out Bush and Cheney what message are you sending to the next crooked administration? And what are they allowing to happen to the country in the meantime? It’s so true that until money is taken out of politics there are no good guys. Just one party that is less poisonous than the other. They are all beholden to their sponsors, and I don’t mean us.

    The media is what has most disappointed me. What should be screaming headlines and major investigative exposes are regularly either ignored or glossed over. The average network TV news viewer doesn’t know a fraction of what’s going on, which is exactly the desired affect. They barely even cover the anti-war movement, for god’s sake and that represents the feelings of 70% of Americans.

    I’m past outraged, I’m now numb with disbelief. I don’t even recognize this country anymore and I am ashamed at what it’s become. If things don’t change dramatically under a Democratic president, that will be scary. Corporate lobbies cannot be allowed to write the laws our elected officials then pass, and that we are all then haplessly subjected to. The tail needs to stop wagging the dog. And for heaven’s sake why are we still using the same hackable voting machines this many years later? That should have been, as John McLoughlin would say, “Issue One”. But I also hope for the same type country you do, Jane. All it takes is one inspirational leader with the courage to do what’s right for the people for a change.

  7. Jane Devinon 07 Oct 2007 at 8:35 pm 7

    Alison, you do not sound like a crackpot. You sound like someone who has, like many of us, witnessed the corruption and is left, as you say, not even recognizing her own country.

    I loved your post. I don’t know all the truths behind 9/11, and believe no citizen does — yet. I do know, though, that I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with everything else you so beautifully expressed, right down to the numb disbelief.

    We just have to take this country back, and rebuild its integrity.

  8. Pattyon 08 Oct 2007 at 7:03 am 8

    I continue to have a dream for the people vote to be the vote that elects the next President and not the electoral votes. When a vote was taken in Iraq and Afghanistan all those purple fingers counted toward electing their official. It’s the people that need to be counted in this country.

    I am an Independent because I never wanted to be locked into one party. As an Independent, I can’t vote in January 2008 because there is no Independent party running. How sad is that to not be allowed to vote for my choice to run for the President of the United States. I don’t count and this annoys the heck out of me.

    I lived in Europe doing the fiasco of the 2000 election when votes had to be counted, recounted, and recounted in Florida. What a mess this was and the people in Europe just couldn’t believe this could happen in the USA. I was embarrassed to no end and couldn’t even defend my own country because I didn’t understand it. All I use to say is, people in the third world countries write on a piece of paper and slip it into a box. Then people hand count the votes and the winner is announced. But not in this country … oh no, we can’t get it right yet!

    Sometimes I wonder if there is a written law with regards to Democrats and Republicans that you need to think only one way. I think, my goodness they are all humans and should have empathy for what is going on all around the beautiful country. How can either party just sit in their plus seats saying … yup, I am going to continue to let US soldiers die because this is what our party believes. YUP, I am going to allow innocent people in these countries to die because I am looking for terrorists and I don’t even know what they look like.

    After 911, Homeland Security was born. Where the heck was Homeland Security after World War II?

    I remember watching either 20 minutes, Dateline, Primetime just two or three days before Iraq was hit. A news reporter sat down with Saddam for an hour long interview. Saddam stated their was no weapons of mass destruction in his country. Saddam also wanted a one on one with Bush via satellete for his country and our country to listen to what he has to say as well as what Bush had to say. However Bush declined and the USA hit Iraq and WE totally destroyed their country.

    The USA has their nose into the business of way too many countries and the USA would never allow any other country to tell us what to do. Why the heck do we get so involved. Right now the USA is so indebt to China over the money we borrowed for this “undeclared” war that it is very scary. Then of course we need to be careful with China and not “slap their hands” too much when they used lead paint in the toys our children play with. We can’t make waves with them at all as China almost own us.

    How can we take this country back and restore integrity when we are not allowed to voice our opinions or go out and protest? A student was tazzed and arrested when he ask questions at a University not long ago. People who marched on Washington were arrested. So many free rights were taken away and people are in fear of saying something out of line and being arrested.

    We are not allowed to see the wounded and dead soilders coming home. When we did see this back during the Vietnam era, we stood up and took charge and spoke and protested. Out of sight, out of mind” comes into my mind because if we don’t actually see it, we don’t believe it.

    We use to be able to believe the jounalists reporting on everything, now no one knows anymore what is true or not. It’s like going to a doctor for an illness and then having to go for a second and third opinion only to find a doctor that agrees with one of the other doctors. Then maybe what is being told to you is the right information.

    I want Bin Ladin caught and pay for what happened on 911. It’s amazing that this man can’t be found especially since he “sh**s in the sand”. Heck we found Saddam in a hole, let’s find Bin Ladin.

  9. Michelleon 08 Oct 2007 at 7:27 am 9

    Jane, I love your dream~
    Glad to know I am not alone in this dream we all share! Thank you for sharing what we all feel, but cannot put into words!
    This nightmare HAS got to end soon, our young men and women feel no hope for the future…is that possible? As a young woman I felt untouchable, full of dreams and opportunities….my kids want to join the military so they can get an education, that is not a good reason for me…Most go in to get the schooling, and do not realize what they are really in for if called to go to war. Thank you for all the posts, wonderful to read as well! M

  10. Jonion 08 Oct 2007 at 10:32 am 10


    What a wonderful article. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. Thank you so much for taking a stand. This president has been the worst president in the history of this country. He has caused more harm in the few years he’s been in office, than anyone else would have been able to do in decades. He has been our number one enemy and has made countries all over the world hate us. Our economy has been the worst than it’s ever been. I pity the person who will have to start to clean up his messes. It’s going to take decades, I think.

    As far as 9/11. He ignored all the warnings we had picked up, then he uses 9/11 as an excuse to wire tap the innocent citizens of this country. He is our own worst enemy. We have been losing our freedoms bit by bit and I hope by God, that America wakes up before the next election. Hillary has the experience and will make a great president.


    I agree with all that you say also. I have said many times, how could the people in this country have put Bush in a second time? I also thought everyone would have gotten out and voted him out of office. I couldn’t believe it! He has done more damage to this country and everyone in it in such a short time and it’s going to take decades to turn things around. Bush has been the most arrogant, stupid, selfish man I’ve ever seen running this country.

    About global warming, those that don’t believe all the scientists all over the world, who have been studying this for many years, have their heads in the sand. The bad thing is, until they start believing it and doing something about it, it will be too late to reverse the damage that is already done, not to mention further damage that will have been done, until these ostridges finally get their stupid heads out of the sand.


    Great post.

  11. EJon 08 Oct 2007 at 10:47 am 11

    I most certainly share in this dream!

  12. allisonon 08 Oct 2007 at 12:56 pm 12

    Thank you Jane for another thought provoking article.
    It sounds like so many of us are continually feeling the way I do as well, a shock and disbelief that just goes on and on. Every day a new horrifying revelation as the layers and layers of lies and betrayals just keep coming to light. Living here in CA, I sit and listen to the votes being announced, people conceding before our votes are even counted. We can’t even seem to get voting machines right. I am weary of it all. And we don’t even have a real news source available with all of our 200 channels. We have to dig on the internet, to seek out the radio, and news articles not afraid to question, or to report something other than Britney Spears.
    Hillary has had our vote here in our house for quite sometime, I hope our three votes count. I really do.

    I hope so too, Allison. - JD

  13. Kathyon 08 Oct 2007 at 3:36 pm 13

    Hi Jane,
    “You have a dream.” There was a time in my life, when I, too, dreamed of wonderful things for my country, the weak, the poor, the young and the old. I am 57 years old and on disability. Worked hard from the age of 15, owed my own business and was looked upon as very successful. I volunteered, helped my family and friends all that I could and tried to be a up standing member of the community. I am also a lesbian and although I did not talk about it, I did nothing to hide it either. In 1999 my mom became ill. I sold my business and returned to Salem, Or where I was born and raised. My partner of 23 years had died from cancer and I really needed a sense of family around me.
    My parents were not wealthy, but had prepared themselves to live comfortably in retirement,,,,,,they thought. My mom’s medications were $864.00 a month after all insurance coverage. The reason she was failing so quickly was that there was not enough money for her to get all of the meds she needed. I immediately took on the financial responsibility of anything my mom needed that was not covered by medicare and her supplimental insurance. I took care of mom for 3 years. Although I was wounded after her death I needed to get a job and try to put some kind of life together for myself. My ‘Heart Song” was taking care of neglected and abused kids. I went to work for a non-profit company and thought briefly it was odd that I was the only female working in the home I was assigned too. To make a long story short after 3 years I was fired. Their reason, I could not get along with and I hated men. The real reason, they found out I was a lesbian. We have no protection in Oregon, they really could have told the truth. They have told every one of my potential employers that I hate men, thus no employment. They say they are protecting the children of the world from me. After 2 years of being destitute I had a break down, I am disabled now. No insurance, food baskets every week and help from sister now and again.

    I too, Have a Dream Jane. It is for equality, fairness, a way to make each and every hard working American have value even in their darkest hour. That we will value people over oil and strong charater over money.
    In My Dream, being a Christian does not give you the right to judge or decide who’s God is the best. There are no unwanted children, people living in the streets, or elderly people crying themselves to sleep out of need or loneliness. There is no black or white, gay or straight, rich or poor. There is a place for all of us.
    In My Dream, I will one day be able hold my head up and help those in need.

    Thank you Jane for another thought provoking article, you are truly one of a kind!

  14. LJBon 08 Oct 2007 at 3:54 pm 14

    Your dream is kind of my nightmare. Seem to be out of my element here, but I’m a Republican, and a gay one at that so I’m out of my element even among those who share my fiscally conservatives views.

    I don’t know who will be nominated for my side so its early for me to call my vote, but I wanted to let you know there are parts of your dream that are shared by myself and people outside the democratic party. Like the hope for a clean campain without mudslinging. A plan to exit Iraq, but also a plan against terrorism (which I think the Patriot Act is). I don’t think the dems have a plan and overwhelmingly they are weak on defense.

    Universal health care is, imo, a terrible and socialist idea and I don’t hink it will ever fly in this country, which as far as I know is still based on capitalism and free enterprise. Why should I pay to insure someone else’s kids? If they can’t afford to care for them, they shouldn’t have them, period.

    I have not agreed with everything Bush has done, but I think history will show that he was right with his war on terror. Muslims in the east are backwards dangerous people and its frightening to think that such a group could ever have access to nuclear weapons. I think Bush did what he had to do and am sorry that the weapons weren’t found because Im positive they exist, maybe in that next door hellhole of Iran.

    I agree with you on the torture though and the damage done to our reputation.

    We don’t share political views but I enjoy most of your articles anyway. :=) I suppose we’ll have to see whether your dream comes true, but I do hope mine wins out.

    LJB, Texas

  15. Pattyon 08 Oct 2007 at 4:13 pm 15

    LJB writes: “If they can’t afford to care for them, they shouldn’t have them, period.”

    And that’s exactly one of the reasons why abortion needs to remain legal.

  16. Michelleon 08 Oct 2007 at 4:36 pm 16

    When I lived in Northern Ca. I used to work at the voting polls in Sacramento. I was young and the money was good. I never understood at my tender young age (early 20’s) why we would work SOOO hard to do all this voting, counting, marking off names and addresses, looking at I.D.s and then waiting till wee hours in the morning to turn in our lock boxes, lines and lines of people waiting to turn in these precious votes, when on the news, the “winner” is announced. I then begun to realize that the states were ‘bought’ out in a sense and not every vote counted, but what our rep. for the state voted. (more to it, but I am making it short). I tell my children to vote, it counts, they say it doesn’t, I say if you raise your voice enough and tell your REPS what you want, it can make a difference. I bought them in their young teens, books like, “Congress for Dummies”, “Politics for Dummies”, but I think I need something for this dummy here. Because I am dumbfounded at the obvious!! COME ON! It really makes me angry. My son has asked me the same question I have asked for years, “Mom, how come we never talk about North Korea”, my answer was that there is a real legitamite issue in Korea and I believe we are distracted by bullying others for money and we would prob. gets our buts kicked, most definately. Come on, how can his wife, mom and dad, friends, kids even think he is SANE! He is like a freaking mad scientist who wants to rule the world. I hope I do not make anyone mad, he is a person, and we have to be real, if my friend were acting like a money hungry animated cartoon mouse named “brain” (from Pinky and the Brain) I would tell them! I think I would feel safer with “Pinky” in charge, lol! Great post’s!
    Michelle in Tx. (not much to her delight)

  17. LJBon 08 Oct 2007 at 5:20 pm 17

    I don’t disagree with you on that Patty. I disagree w/ many conservatives, probably most on this. I think abortion should be legal in the 1st eight weeks only though.

  18. Jonion 08 Oct 2007 at 5:32 pm 18

    I’m not for universal health care and as for abortion, I think the sooner the better and never after the first trimester. That’s just my own personal feeling about it. I’m a liberal, but just not too liberal on some things lol.

    Sometimes my son accuses me of being a conservative. I just happen to have my own personal feelings and beliefs on some things, that’s all. But I am a Democrat!!

  19. Saraon 08 Oct 2007 at 5:58 pm 19

    “If they can’t afford to care for them, they shouldn’t have them, period.”

    You know LJB, I used to think like you on similar topics. I just can’t think that way anymore. It is, really, just hateful. Allowing poor children to suffer, (die from tooth aches) because they were born? Because their parents lacked judgment, or lost their job, or own a small business, or for whatever reason they are unable to provide insurance/healthcare to their children.

    I admit I got all ticked off after seeing black people looting after Katrina, and after a while, I realized that is how they were portrayed by the media. I was being so cruel while so many were suffering, and suffering terribly. There is so much more to that story then what I first thought.

    I admit I wasn’t concerned about the Patriot Act in the beginning. Or torture for that matter. But I took the time to understand. I took the time to learn. I took the time to care.

    I know that neither party is perfect. Nor is any human. But I finally decided to switch to the democratic side. They may not be perfect, but they, I believe are the party of the people. They are pro gay rights, pro womens rights, pro minority rights, pro poor people, pro healthcare, pro choice, pro environment. I told my friend the other day, I choose the party that seems to care more about the *people*. I just can’t continue living with, what I believed to be, a hateful, or prejudiced, or angry outlook on those not like, or as fortunate as me. I know we are a country with free enterprise, and capitalism, and I am totally on board with you there. But, I have to put the people first. And I can no longer respect the actions of the republican leaders and what they stand for.

    How can we expect to live peacefully with others in this world, if we can’t even live respectfully among each other.

    BTW - I live in Italy, and we have socialized medicine here. There are also private doctors. Having socialized medicine does not mean that doctors can’t get rich. They can, trust me. But it does mean that ANYone who is sick, can get healthcare care.

    And to assume that Dems are soft on defense just does not make sense to me. The dems are against this false war, a war based on lies, a war about oil, and profit. (and all of the illegal things bush has done). If it were about getting those who want to/did attack us, we would be doing everything we can to get Osama.

  20. Pattyon 08 Oct 2007 at 6:01 pm 20

    If there is a limit on when a woman can have an abortion, then there will be people who will have children they can’t afford. As a result, it will be up to the community (meaning us) to support them (a.k.a universal health care, public assistance and so on).

    It may take a woman a few months to sort out her feelings regarding her pregnancy before she makes her final decision. It’s a personal decision that she needs to make in her own time.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not one who is convinced that we should have universal health care and I’m one of the millions who doesn’t have health insurance. But I do believe that if we take a woman’s right away to get an abortion, regardless of how far along she is in her pregnancy, then it is our responsibility to make sure that the mother and child are covered 100%.

    But anyway, thankfully, abortion is legal so I’m not sure what my point is. :-)

  21. Alisonon 08 Oct 2007 at 7:03 pm 21


    There were only a couple of thoughts you wrote that I would respectfully take issue with.
    In explaining why you are opposed to universal healthcare you said, “why should I pay to insure someone else’s kids?”. I understand how frustrating it is to see your tax dollars go toward something you have no vested interest in. The flip side of your coin is why should OUR tax dollars go to pay for manufactured wars and the research & development of the most inhumane and diabolical weapons imaginable. Cluster bombs, daisy cutters, land-mines, huge mega-ton bombs, microwave beams that melt skin, phosphorous which also eats the body away, etc… Why must we be expected to fund a defense budget that is so off the charts that it exceeds the global combined total? We aren’t the ones perpetuating foreign policies that spawn vast hatred from our constant meddling.
    The other comment you made was that “Muslims in the east are backwards and dangerous people and it’s frightening to think that such a group could have access to nuclear weapons”. After seeing the US invade Iraq and set up permanent bases and an “embassy” the size of a fortified city, why wouldn’t any country in the mideast feel threatened by this aggressive encroachment? Especially if they had oil. And if nuclear pursuits are underway, isn’t it obvious they feel the need for a deterrent? We are reaping what we’ve sewn. And if being the innovators and suppliers of the large scale weapons I mentioned before makes us the more advanced civilization, I have to wonder how advanced as human beings we are. I would choose to subsidize somebody else’s kid’s healthcare any day over killing and maiming people to get at their natural resources, imposing a puppet government and exploiting the hell out them for corporate profit.

  22. LJBon 08 Oct 2007 at 8:23 pm 22

    It’s okay Joni, sometimes I get accused of being an Independent, LOL.

    I respect everyone’s opinions. Sara I understand what you’re saying, I really do. That kids are essentially innocent and society has an investment to make in them if their parents can’t or won’t. I just don’t think the investment should be through tax dollars. It just becomes too easy, imo, for a whole bunch of people to take advantage of any type of welfare system, as we saw before the reforms. And I know it makes me sound Draconian, but I really strongly believe that there ought to be consequences for parents who can, but won’t, take care of their children’s essential needs.

    I have worked with several people who refuse to buy the health insurance policy offered at my place of employment. It’s cheap to add a dependent, something like $40, but they won’t do it. They would rather use the State program for children, which is something the taxpayers do pay for, and almost every single mother qualifies.
    That’s something that just boggles my mind. They won’t pay $40/mo. for their own kids, but they’ll buy cigarettes and fast food lunches! And I’ll tell you, if I had kids and I had to get a second job to pay for the basics I would. I just think we’re living in a time where a whole lot of people aren’t taking the kind of responsibility they should.

    Patty, I hear you, but my belief is above. I think women, of which I am one, who wait until they’re far along in their pregnancy are beyond self-centered. There are times when one doesn’t have the luxury to “sort out their feelings” and this is one of them. There should be a sense of urgency there. The recognition that every day that seed has grown a little bigger, and is capable of feeling pain. I’m sorry, but this is the way I feel.

    I only wish adoption would grow more popular, and carry less of a stigma. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we lived in a world where a teen girl could make a decision for adoption and not be ashamed or made to feel badly because of it? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if instead her decision was celebrated?

    Allison, our tax dollars go to weapons because it’s in the country’s interest to defend itself. I don’t know that this war was about oil as so many people like to say. Show me where the US gained oil from the war and maybe I’ll change my mind, but so far no one has any proof.

  23. Pattyon 08 Oct 2007 at 10:16 pm 23


    The two abortions I had fit under your timeframe as being acceptable. Whew! :-) Well one was at 2.5 months. Because I had the abortions when I was in High School I can tell you from experience that even if there was no stigma in regards to putting up a baby for adoption I would have still had the abortions But, of course, that is my experience. I’m also a rare egg because having an abortion is also a stigma and this is a fact that I never attempted to hide. Was never ashamed of it because I knew it was the right decision.

    When I wrote “sorting out feelings” I meant it in a broader sense. Allow me to tell you the stories of women I know who had an abortion six months plus into their pregnancy.

    1) Boyfriend died when she was two months pregnant. She took the time to grieve and made the decision to abort.

    2) She was in an abusive relationship. He promised he wouldn’t hit her again once he found out she was pregnant. His promise lasted six months. She got an abortion with a black eye and fat lip.

    3) She is an alcoholic. Tried to stop drinking while pregnant. Did what she knew best -attended meetings and went through therapy. But she couldn’t stop.

    Life isn’t always black and white. Behind others judgments is real life playing out in a way that people may not have expected.

    As I write this, I noticed that out of the four stories I shared, only one was made for “self-centered” reasons and that was mine. And I fit neatly into the acceptable timeframe. Go figure.

    (LBJ, I realize you used self-centered in a different context than I just did. I put the word in quotes not because I was quoting you, but because I don’t feel my decision was self-centered)

  24. LJBon 08 Oct 2007 at 10:48 pm 24

    Patty, I understand anecdotes as well as the next person, but they do not sway me anymore than -

    She beat her child because she was beaten as a child.
    He beat his wife because his dad his his mom.
    He robbed the bank because he was unemployed.
    She stole a car because hers broke down.

    Everybody has been through hard times. Some have been through sheer hell. It is no excuse in my opinion (and please not it’s an opinion) to hurt another. And a “six month plus” old baby CAN live outside the womb. The personal pain of one doesn’t give that one some moral right to hurt another, much less to kill another.

    I am not naive enough to know that accidents happen. BC doesn’t always work, people are human, people forget, people don’t use it when they should. . .like when they are HS students, or alcoholics, or in abusive relationships. I get it. We’re human. Still, Patty, why does the alcoholic suddenly get a conscience at six months? Why doesn’t the woman in the abusive relationship think about the consequences of a pregnancy before she gets pregnant? Why does the widow think it’s appropriate that she grieve for four months BEFORE aborting what is, in fact and actuality at that stage, a LIVE baby?

    Yes, I know it’s legal. I know, in many cases, it’s for the best for many women which is why I agree with it TO A POINT. But I will continue to support bans on late-term abortions because biologically, factually, and in my heart of hearts and conscience, I know that after the zygote stage, these babies are living, feeling human beings.

    Does that make me judgmental of others? I suppose, maybe it does. But I am less concerned really about the fully grown adult women than I am about the baby they carry. A baby that many, many people would love to adopt. I believe that those babies deserve a chance and that at a certain point in pregnancy, that chance should be given.

    Patty, this is just my opinion. I know you disagree. The country is not in full agreement, period. We can each only do and act in a way that fits our beliefs. These are mine, respectfully.

  25. LJBon 08 Oct 2007 at 10:49 pm 25

    Typo, “his dad hit his mom” is what the line should read. I’m a lousy typist. :-)

  26. Saraon 09 Oct 2007 at 4:45 am 26

    Hi LJB - Oh, I know what you are saying. Those thoughts are what I always struggled with, and honesty, still do sometimes. I just find it so overwhelming, I just decided I had to *give humanity the benefit of the doubt* for lack of a better way to say it. Instead of assuming everyone will take advantage, I want to believe that we will set up programs, and do more to help people get off welfare, etc.

    I personally believe we need to re-do the welfare programs, such as receiving financial aid - we need to do it more like Canada, where you work for your check. Such as cleaning the city streets, washing off tagging, gardening, group/shared run child care, delivering meals on wheels, working in shelters, things like that.

    I also have to believe that most people are good, and want to take care of their children, but are unable. If things prohibit them, such as an addiction, or lost employment, or poor education, then maybe we can do more to help them, end the cycles, educate. My biggest peeve in America is the quality of the education system. I believe that is the root of so many problems.

    It is hard. It is overwhelming. It is sad. But I can’t believe that most people would choose to be burdens on society, poor, and lazy and helpless. I have to believe that everyone wants a little bit of success, and pride.

  27. Patty G.on 09 Oct 2007 at 6:00 am 27

    I am a Patty also … post: #8, and I am adding a “G” to my name so my posts are not confused with other posts. :)

  28. Pattyon 09 Oct 2007 at 7:34 am 28

    LJB, I wasn’t trying to sway you. I was clarifying my statement regarding “sort out feelings.” I’ve had the luxary of working for a home for unwed teenage moms and also a shelter for battered women. My unique perspective and hands-on experience with seeing women in real crisis situations makes me more empathetic. Because the woman are no longer invisible. They have names and faces.

    Of course, not all of my co-workers were pro-choice. Some were anti-abortion. But the difference in them is that they weren’t judgmental towards the women we were helping. They didn’t agree, but they weren’t judgmental.

    What’s right? What’s wrong? What’s moral? What’s not? There are shades.

    I didn’t mean for this discussion to be hijaked towards the discussion of abortion so this will be my last word on the subject.

  29. Kathyon 09 Oct 2007 at 9:53 am 29


    Isn’t it wonderful we have a forum to disagree and share our opinions?
    Your President would have us arrested for disagreeing or protesting publicly.

    You are positive that WMD exist. Possibly in Iran. Do you believe we should attack and terrorize Iran in search of these WMD. If in fact that is why we invaded Iraq it only makes sense that Iran is next,,,,to protect us from terrorisum.

    You are against using tax dollars to insure the weakest of the weak. However, you make no reference to the Billions and Billions of tax dollars being spent on this unjust war and the rebuilding a country we have destroyed. Do you not question the Billions of dollars being spent to assist and inhance the lives of the Iraqies? Who is controlling the oil money and why is not being used to pay for their needs instead of our tax dollars?

    You are correct, The US has not gained anything from this war. Bush, Cheney and their cronies certainly have. Take the time to look up who received the contracts to oversee and rebuild Iraq.

    You sound like work hard, take care of your responsibilites, and love your country. I respect you for that. How you can stand up for and defend a party that believes your life as a gay person is deviant, a sin,a threat to all mankind and unworthy of the same rights afforded every other citizen frightens me.

    LBJ, I leave you with one more thought to ponder “oh but for the grace of God go I”


  30. mishon 09 Oct 2007 at 3:39 pm 30

    If Hilary Clinton has her way (give $5,000 to everyone who has a baby) there will be so many neglected babies. Girls will have babies just to get 5 grand and it will be the burden of the taxpayers to take care of them.
    I personally dont believe in abortion for myself. I also dont believe in it as a form of birth control. If you are going to play the game make sure your protected. The guys shouldnt think they are protected because the girl says she is.
    I feel torn on the matter because I do feel a girl has the right to decide for her own body BUT……if she doesnt want the baby and the guy does he should be given the oppurtunity to become a father.The girl should not be able to take away from him. But thats the way God created the bodies. See I said I was torn.
    Getting back to my initial statement DONT Vote for Hilary……..

  31. Patty G.on 09 Oct 2007 at 5:44 pm 31

    In Canadian and European countries, the government gives money to families to care for their children. Some last until the child is 18, some last less. The parents of children in Canada and in European countries are NOT having children just to receive money.

    If $5,000 is given to a new born child in the USA, this comes out to $13.69 per day for a full year. I don’t believe women are going to be pushing out babies to get $13.69 a day to care for a child. This barely covers diapers and formula for a week.

  32. allisonon 09 Oct 2007 at 7:43 pm 32

    LJB, I mean no disrespect, but really you can do some digging, you are on the net, it was about oil, and so much more, the color of green, money, money, money.
    Don’t leave it up to anyone to show you.What a cop out! I have learned for myself. Start an honest search for your own benefit.
    They haven’t even bothered to hide that much. It is one huge cash cow from the start.
    And we handed over our rights on a silver platter. Now will you all run and say we need to go after Iran also? Money money money Wake up! They are lying to us, and you won’t hear it on fox news.

  33. LJBon 09 Oct 2007 at 7:45 pm 33

    Sara, Patty and Kathy, you all have good points. Like you, Patty, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a debate on abortion I was just sharing my beliefs. I do respect yours, even if my passion on the subject runs high.

    Kathy, I’m a fiscal conservative. Socially, I’d consider myself a moderate. I detest the fact that my party has been aligned with and is now considered part of the religious right wing. As a gay woman, as a person period, I’m appalled by many of the things that have come out of the mouths of party members. The history of the Republican party was, at one time, known as conservative for its views on finance, not what people do in their bedrooms.

    Still I would be gay no matter who is in office. The policies that truly effect me, including terrorism and taxes, are ones that I agree more with Repubs. on. Outside of that, we have more in common than not.

    Thank you for ‘talking’ with me on the subject, which I found insightful even if I don’t agree with all the other views.

  34. LJBon 09 Oct 2007 at 7:48 pm 34

    Allison, I did look it up on the net. I can find no proof that the US gained oil from the war. Haliburton did make a ton of money, and I know that’s Cheney’s old company, but he is no longer profiting from that, despite it seems, the implication.

  35. Jonion 09 Oct 2007 at 9:12 pm 35


    I have to wonder why you keep telling everyone you are gay? I, for one don’t need to know what your sexual orientation is. Or anyone else’s for that matter. Nor do I want to know, or care. I believe that is something that should be very private. It’s when you shove it in everyone’s face that it becomes an issue.

  36. LJBon 09 Oct 2007 at 9:26 pm 36


    I wasn’t shoving it in your face, hon. I was responding to Kathy’s post to me. In other words, Kathy and I were ‘talking’.

    I have to wonder why you jumped in? And why you believe that the mere mention of ‘gay’ is “shoving it in everyone’s face”. Do you say that when a hetero woman mentions her husband or the guy she’s dating? My guess: not.

    I get hetero-ness “shoved in my face” all the time, LOL. And whiteness. And maleness. And bumperstickers that proclaim this or that. Homemakers, breadmakers, and candlestickmakers all share who they are with the world in their own ways. Make a Difference: Join the PTA, my kid’s an honor roll student, In God we Trust, Bad Boys Drive Bad Trucks. Confederate Flags. Whirled Peas. America Love it or Leave it. Jesus Saves. Save the Whales. Free Burma. Praise the Goddess.

    Their are beliefs and lifestyles all over the place, Joni. But ssshhhhh…..it’s all very, very private.

    :-) LBJ

  37. Lindaon 09 Oct 2007 at 10:06 pm 37

    “…Cheney’s old company, but he is no longer profiting from that, despite it seems, the implication.”

    Yes and no. Cheney continues to hold Haliburton stock (btwn 400,000 to 500,000 shares, I believe). He’s donating the after-tax profits while he is in office. So technically, he isn’t profiting. At least not at the moment.

    When he leaves office, the profits from the stock will revert to him. So it is in his best interest, because he will gain financially in the long-term, to support Haliburton in any way he can.

    There is an inherent conflict of interest there.

    “I can find no proof that the US gained oil from the war.”

    The war being about oil and the US profiting from oil are two different topics, but closely related.

    The Bush Administration could have gone to war due to oil but the reason the US hasn’t gained oil is because the war wasn’t well planned.

  38. Lindaon 09 Oct 2007 at 10:45 pm 38

    I just did a quick search and here are the numbers:

    100,000 shares at $54.5000 (vested), expire 12-03-07; 33,333 shares at $28.1250 (vested), expire 12-02-08; 300,000 shares at $39.5000 (vested), expire 12-02-09.

  39. Jonion 09 Oct 2007 at 11:50 pm 39



  40. Saraon 10 Oct 2007 at 7:53 am 40

    LBJ - “I’m a fiscal conservative. Socially, I’d consider myself a moderate. I detest the fact that my party has been aligned with and is now considered part of the religious right wing. As a gay woman, as a person period, I’m appalled by many of the things that have come out of the mouths of party members. The history of the Republican party was, at one time, known as conservative for its views on finance, not what people do in their bedrooms.”

    And those are exactly the reasons why I jumped ship. Can we even still call the Republicans fiscally conservative? haha We as a nation are broke. They have spent everything. Sure, the gave their rich buddies tax breaks, but is that enough to stay with a (sorry to say, but I strongly believe) party filled with hateful attitudes. Sorry, Jodi, I am using you as an example - the comments by Jodi almost always seem to come from those who align themselves with the conservative party. I can’t be associated with a party that overwhelmingly feels that way.

    I prefer to have a party in the white house that perhaps taxes a little too heavily, but at least builds programs for and supports education, health care, stem cell research, and the under privileged and is accepting of all races, sexes, and life choices. This is much better to me then a party that gives tax breaks to the rich, discriminates against sexual orientation and race and poverty, and does ALL the things that Bush’s administration has done (or not done).

    Perhaps it is easier to influence policy about taxes then it is about belief in God (which is supposed to be separate from state, but isn’t in this administration, or party). So, if there are fiscally conservative Dems, they can vote and try to influence tax initiatives, easier then trying to influence conservative republicans over issues they believe are against God, i.e abortion, stem cell research, gay rights, etc.

    Anyhoo, I am not arguing, or trying to convince you to come to the dark side. hehehe But just conversing. (And I don’t feel you were shoving gay down anyones throat.)

    Hey Linda- what do those numbers mean? I am stock lame. Is Cheney making moolah or not? haha

    I love all these smart women conversing on this site! So many other blogs end up name calling and ugly anonymous fights. And since I am in Italy, it is nice to discuss these things in english!

  41. mishon 10 Oct 2007 at 8:50 am 41

    Patty G

    The keyword to your statement is “women”. Women as in older,mature and responsible women. Put $5,000. in front of girls and they will, with all the promises of their “boyfriends” sticking by them. When the money has been pissed away and the “boyfriend” is gone the girl decides she doesnt want to be a mother or deal with the baby for 18 years and it gets passed onto the taxpayers.

  42. Kathyon 10 Oct 2007 at 10:00 am 42

    Hey, thanks for sharing your opinions without hostility. I know nothing will change your mind about your republican roots. However, I hope you will look deep inside yourself and realize GWB has destroyed many of our dreams. You speak of fiscal responsibility, do you realize we are broke? Broke, when every program for the people of this counrty has been cut or eliminated. So, with that in mind, what is it you really support and align yourself with within the republican party?


  43. Alisonon 10 Oct 2007 at 1:33 pm 43

    Several years ago I found this passage on one of the multitude of political news sites I was checking in with daily. I was so personally distressed then and so wanting to keep abreast of this unraveling sham of a crooked administration that it was hard to even focus on my job, and I work on straight commission.
    I cut it out and taped it to the top of my computer so at those times when the Iraq news, or the Bush/Cheney criminal enterprise got to be too demoralizing I could read it and feel a sense of hope that only perspective could offer. It was written by Thomas Jefferson in 1798 after the passage of the Sedition Act.
    “A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt. If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake”.

  44. Kathyon 10 Oct 2007 at 2:02 pm 44

    Thank You for sharing Alison.


  45. Lindaon 10 Oct 2007 at 3:18 pm 45

    Sarah, I emailed a client who is a stockbroker so he can tell me exactly what those numbers mean. As soon as he gets back to me I’ll post what he said.

    Just to be clear, while Cheney is in office all of the after-tax profits are donated to charity, so at the moment he isn’t making any money.

  46. Lindaon 10 Oct 2007 at 3:21 pm 46


    What if the money didn’t go to the parents but rather in a fund that can’t be touched until the child provides proof that he or she is going to college or buying a home?

  47. mishon 10 Oct 2007 at 4:12 pm 47

    September 28, 2007 5:44
    Hillary Clinton and Baby Bonds
    Hillary Clinton makes a stir by telling a Congressional Black Caucus forum that every child born in the country should receive a $5,000 baby bond to help pay the costs of college or buying a home. However, it is not the first time she has made this proposal. It was also part of the American Dream Initiative that she put forward at a DLC convention last year, though the figure she was talking about then was $1,000 on the installment plan–$500 at birth, followed by $500 at age 10. Campaign spokesman Phil Singer says it is “not a firm policy proposal, but an idea under consideration.” (And also worth mentioning, it’s an idea that our esteemed managing editor proposed recently, though Rick Stengel would tie it to national service.)

    Republicans do not immediately rush to endorse the idea, and it gives Drudge another screaming Hillary headline. Rudy Giuliani, on Sean Hannity’s radio show, says not every kid needs the money: “This is a campaign based on pandering to the point where I think they think the American people are stupid.”

    I just wonder why? Where does the money come from? Whats its purpose? We have so many other issues health care, homeless the poor way the elderly are treated.

  48. Lindaon 10 Oct 2007 at 5:28 pm 48

    Although I disagree with LBJ on many issues, I like her because she doesn’t pull any punches. She came right out and said I don’t feel I should have to pay for someone else’s children (I’m paraphrasing).

    Being 100% honest about her feelings and not hiding behind half-hearted arguments leads to a productive discussion because we know where she stands. In the end, minds will not be changed but the conversation can lead to a better understanding of the other person’s position. The more we understand, the greater the possibility we can find a compromise.

    Hiding behind lukewarm comments is cowardly.

    For example, if “not all kids need the money”, then give it only to the kids that need it. Or if one is afraid that parents will misuse the money, then don’t give parents access to it.

    See problem solved, right?

    It should be if the arguments provided were genuine, but there not because people use secondary or third arguments to make their point when the reality is that under no circumstances do they believe in the baby bond. So just say it. Be honest. Even if you have to be unPC (or is that non PC??)

    The majority of the people don’t know how to debate honestly. This is one of the reasons why we are always stuck in a hamster’s wheel.

    Perhaps Clinton proposed the baby bond because in a recent Gallop Poll (July 2007) the American people were asked the following question

    What is the most important financial problem facing your family today?

    The results of the poll can be found here: http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=28384 I tried to post them but the inclusion made the post too long to post.

    The cost of buying/renting a home and college costs rank in the top 10. Perhaps Clinton is pandering. I can’t argue that she isn’t because I don’t know what is in her heart, but at least her pandering she is addressing the concerns of the American people.

    If she is pandering then she is pandering to those who make $75,000 or more a year since they are the ones most concerned with education costs (according to the Gallup poll I submitted). So if those who make $75,000 plus a year are finding it difficult to pay for their children’s education and the median household income for 2006 was $48,200 (source: US Census Bureau), it seems that maybe Rudy is right. Not all kids need the money, but it is obvious that the overwhelming majority do.

  49. LJBon 10 Oct 2007 at 8:10 pm 49

    In Kuwait, every 18 year old male is given a sum of money. I forget what it is now, but back in the 80’s I think it was around $20,000. The money was meant to start their adult life, and they could use it for college, marriage, business, whatever.

    There is no poverty in Kuwait, but it’s a tiny and obscenely rich little island.

    I’ve long had the thought of revamping social security and making it more like a trust account. Crazy idea, maybe, but it came to me when one of my friends was going through a hard time and couldn’t get a loan. I wondered, why can’t we have a SS system that’s more like a trust? One we could borrow a small sum from, say up to $2500, when we were in an emergency situation? That’s not welfare, it’s not a hand-out — it comes from our own money.

    Then again, I also think the system pays out too much to survivors while not paying enough to the elderly. A woman I work with receives $1800 a month from SS for her and her two children from survivor’s benefits. If she was divorced and receiving child support, she’d get nowhere near that amount. And her husband, who died at 34, and who started working after college, did not put anywhere near that amount of money into the system. Her kids were five and three. . .she’ll get that check even while they’re in college.

    My mother’s SS check, on the other hand, is $623/mo., and my father worked for over fifty years. He died at 62, just when he was going to start collecting. My mom is 71 and will probably not last another year. So all that money dad put in through the years, the govt. will get to keep a sizeable share.

    It just makes more sense to me to abolish the whole system and have private IRA’s. I still think it can’t be voluntary, because too many wouldn’t contribute, but I think you should be able to take one small loan from it up to three times in your life to cover emergencies.

    Just thought I’d share my crazy idea here. :-)

    Linda, I like you too. I value other opinions that are presented well and have some thought behind them, and sometimes yes, I do change my mind. Not about the abortion issue, but yes I see the points you and other’s have made about the country’s debt.

  50. Lindaon 10 Oct 2007 at 9:20 pm 50

    “Linda, I like you too.”

    Aaawww shucks, I’m blushing and I’m not even a lesbian. :-)

    Chris Rock once said that people need to listen to the issues and then make up their minds. They shouldn’t base their opinion on whether a bill or what have you was submitted by a Republican or a Democrat. Then he went on to say that no matter what “side” you are on, you don’t always agree with your party. He said that in some ways he’s conservative (when it comes to money) and some ways he’s liberal (when it comes to prostitution). He cracks me up.

  51. Jane Devinon 10 Oct 2007 at 10:42 pm 51

    I loved logging in and reading this discussion. Seeing that people can talk and disagree, and still relate. Wonderful!

  52. VIVIANon 11 Oct 2007 at 8:35 pm 52

    Marlyin Monroe had a dream, i watched her last night try to fulfill that dream, on her life story, starring POPPY Montgomery. She did not have a chance, from the day she walked in to her first producers office. ashe was a piece of meat to them all, but her dream was to star on Brodway in a play, and to get married and have a baby. it was the saddest story , and i forgot just how badly the women in those days were treated. They may be treated a little better now, but they are still inferior to the males. the next moveie i watched was starring Goldie Hawn, in DECIEVED, WITH wILLIAM hURT. I LOVE GOLDIE hAWN AND HER MOVIES WERE SO LIGHT AND HAPPY. OSCAR WINNER, she is . PRODUCER NOW , VERY SMART. and i bet she does’nt pinch the butts of the guys as they walk by. I am happy that she has had a good, life, and i cry for Marlyin Monroe. why would anyoneone want to be a Marlyin Monroe, norma jean hated Marlyin . because of the things she had to do to get the parts in the movies. and they fed her drugs to get her through what ever they needed her to do. she was lucky she was getting 500.00 a week. just so depressing.

  53. lorion 12 Oct 2007 at 7:59 pm 53

    Amen to that sister!!!

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